Episode #270 Steph Hay - Designing with a Content-First Approach
Usability in products and websites is what most organizations strive for. The more usable the product, the more likely that people will use it. Through research and testing, you can root out many issues with clunky interactions that hinder the experience. What isn’t as immediately clear is if some perceived usability issues are actually understandability problems. Your content could be the culprit.
Steph Hay is the Director of Content Strategy at Capital One. She’s an advocate of using a Content-First method. At the base level, if your content works, it goes a long way toward improving your entire experience. Rather than letting the design dictate what the content can be, starting with a focus on what the content is can influence the design in positive ways.
Even testing the content in a Google Doc with users can uncover some serious hurdles very early in the process. This allows you to objectively evaluate the usefulness of the content without what could be the distraction of a beautiful design or layout. After determining the appropriate words, you can then plug them into your design instead of using placeholder text that could be creating inappropriate line lengths. A beautiful design can be really nice to look at, but a beautiful design with the right content will be far more usable.
Jared Spool: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Spool Cast. I am Jared Spool, your cruise director for the next few minutes. We are honored today to have with us the amazing Stephanie Hay.
She is joining us to talk about designing content first, the subject of her wonderful workshop. Hey, Stephanie, how are you?
Stephanie Hay: I am great, Jared. Listen. Do you know that the conference is following right after daylight savings time?
Jared: That happens frequently that we end up having it right that weekend. It has worked out that time.
Stephanie: How many people are going to show up super early to their first day of workshops on Monday, the 2nd?
Jared: I think everyone will be there, partially because we serve a lot of coffee for the breakfast. Second because they'll be excited about the amazing workshops, that the odds of them sleeping the night before are just slim.
Stephanie: [laughs] It's like Christmas, in other words.
Jared: Yes. That's right.
Stephanie: Good to know. Plus you have pancakes.
Jared: South By always has their conference, over the other. This one is the one where you get an extra hour of sleep, but the South By one is where you get one less hour of sleep, which means you get one less hour of party the night before. They have Sunday sessions which means, whoever has that first session on Sunday morning, has it an hour earlier than everyone's expecting it to be.
Stephanie: This has bit me twice, when I was an undergrad at Ohio University, and the bar was closing an hour early. We all stood in the street, and partied. It was fun. [laughs]
Jared: I had a designer that worked for me once, who loved to pull all-nighters that weekend, so that he could say he worked 25 hours in a day just to get the job done.
Stephanie: Wow. That's commitment.
Stephanie: That's real commitment.
Jared: Yeah. Then we threw out the work, and started over.
Stephanie: [laughs] Yeah, of course. I once overslept. I overslept for a choir concert too.
I walk in, and everybody's up on stage. I stood in the wings until the conductor got done with the song, and helped me come on, which was important because I had a solo.
Jared: [laughs] Yes, there you go.
Stephanie: That was a panic moment.
Jared: Yes. I bet it was. I bet it was. After you've woken up, from having the extra hour of sleep that weekend, you're going to do a full day workshop again.
Stephanie: That's right.
Jared: Now last year when you did it, it was the first time for doing it at the UI Conference. You had also only been giving this workshop for a few months at that point, if I remember correctly.
Stephanie: That's right.
Jared: Now it's a year later. Have you learned new things about Content first, in that year? Are there things that the year has revealed that will make people love your session even more, because you have that much more experience?
Stephanie: Of course. Of course it's true that over the last year, I can't even tell you how much Content first has been put to the test as a practice. I joined Capital One last September, to build a content strategy practice on the design team. Not on brand, or marketing, or communications, where you might normally find content strategy, but very squarely in the product design team.
When I gave the workshop last November, I was maybe I think five or six weeks to that gig. I hadn't hired a team yet. I was really trying to understand the landscape, in order to figure out whether or not Content first could apply, and if so, where? So many projects are happening, at any one time.
My experience prior to that had been...I was been part of a project, from inception through launch. I was really able to start with the content, with relative ease. Now I'm in an organization, where there are more than a 100 initiatives happening. They're all already started.
Where does Content First fit? Since last September, I hired 10 folks on the team. That's all from demand for this practice, because of the number of ways that it scales within the organization, which I can get into more detail if that's not going to bore you to tears Jared. [laughs]
Jared: No. It probably won't.
Stephanie: It's just the nerdy stuff I love.
Jared: This idea of coming into projects in the middle, and trying to do Content first. You're right. It's actually a unique rear opportunity, to be at that inception moment, where nothing's been done. You have a green field, a blue sky, a blue ocean, an open canvas, a blank metaphor.
Stephanie: More metaphors, more metaphors.
Jared: I think I've run through all the metaphors, for the rest of the month. Fortunately I was working off role over metaphors, from the previous month.
Stephanie: Why is that I work like that?
Jared: Yeah. I think most people are more commonly, in the middle of stuff. What did you learn about doing stuff in the middle, and what was that adventure like?
Stephanie: A big moment of clarity came to me when I realized, how often we conflate understandability with usability.
Jared: That's interesting. Say more about that.
Stephanie: I would run into a situation where I would say, "Did we try seeing this instead, or did we test this sort of language?" I would often hear...we're a very test driven company at Capital One and I would often hear, "Yeah. We tested it." I was like, "With whom did you test it?
Did you give them different options and listen to the language and really hone in on the words that they were using to understand which ones were the triggers?" Of course, they hadn't, because they didn't have that content focus yet.
What I actually learned is that they were testing usability and they were adding language where things were breaking down from a usability standpoint to try and help clarify the process, when really adding to it wasn't necessarily making it more understandable. It wasn't even necessarily making it more usable.
There were a couple really incredible projects that had been in usability testing and the teams were saying "There's something here. I know that there's something here and we just can't get at it." What we ended up doing, taking a content first mindset, is actually extracting the content from the interface, from the prototype that we were testing, and putting it in a Google Doc or in a Word doc and then going in and testing the language agnostic of the interface.
We wouldn't show the person we were talking to in the customer interview...we wouldn't show them anything, but we would talk to them as if they were interacting with us, as if they were interacting with an interface.
We would figure out where the ah-ha moments were and we would pay attention to the language that they were using, so that we could really understand what specifically were the compelling words that would make somebody want to move forward when we were otherwise just using what you I think would expect as marketing language, something like "safer" or "faster" or "easier" -- the kind of words that you would expect to see from anyone, really, these days.
But what does that actually mean? We really focused by removing all the content from the prototype, removing the content from the design. Spending an hour copying and pasting language into a completely blank text file is a much faster, lower-risk way to isolate the content and test it with people than it is to just continually iterate on the design when you're not really sure what the problem is. Is it a usability problem or is it an understandability problem?
Once we knew that we had it understandable -- we were using the right language, we were able to iterate within this text file -- then we would go back in and make the changes we were required at that point. There were some slow changes. We might have to move some things around or move some screens. Then bingo Bango, we were back in business moving forward.
Jared: Bingo Bango...is that official content first?
Stephanie: No, absolutely not.
Absolutely not. I would not recommend anybody use it, because typically the reactions are exactly what you just [laughs] did, which is "Did you really just say that?"
Jared: This idea, though, of having this discussion back and forth...did that feel awkward to folks when you first started doing it? Did you have to push them to not just put screens with text in front of people?
Stephanie: Oh, yeah. I think the biggest shift that the design team goes through, or product partners we work with, and this was actually true before I started at Capital One too, the project managers, was that we wouldn't start with the design.
The biggest shift was to be OK with starting with the content, to embrace that, to see that by using a tool we all know how to create -- words on a page -- we actually could start the important design work of making sure that we were nailing our story.
The shift from the traditional mindset of "I've got this idea," let's make something. That "make" doesn't necessarily have to be lines on a page. That "make" doesn't have to be an interactive prototype. That "make" could be words in a document, could be a conversation that we design and test.
That shift has been the hardest shift to make, but the reality is, most of the time we as the content strategist are not the subject matter expert. If we do a great job of coaching, really, of showing people how this is such a powerful design tool, the writing is such a powerful communication and design tool, they will run with it. We have to help them get there and I think a couple of the conversations I've had...like, I'll give a content first design talk.
Someone came up to me after a presentation in April and said, "I had heard your stuff before and tried to do content first design and created a content workbook," which is tactically, it's usually a Google Doc or a Word doc, and it's where we put all of the content and invite stakeholders to participate in crafting the language so that we can test it or so that we can use that to design something from.
He said, "I tried to do it but they just never wanted to use the Google Doc." I said, "OK, so what did you do?" He said, "We just went back to using the prototype." They never wanted to the Google Doc.
Back to your original question, the real challenge is always to be willing as the person who is trying to shift the entire team towards designing together early on using tool like word. Like the written word is to be OK with the fact that people are not going to immediately get it and jump on board and start using it the way you're using it or the way you see it.
That's your job. That's your challenge. Your responsibility to help them see why it's so valuable for them, that they don't have to rely on strategy or vision briefs or requirements documentations. We could actually just start doing the design work now together in the written word.
The only way to really convey that appropriately is to do it together. There's got to be some degree of rigor as part of that. Like we, on my team now, Capital One will plug in for an hour or two a week with a particular team and say, "OK, show us wherever you are and make some recommendations that we capture in that workbook and then unplug and walk away."
Over time, they started to understand what this really means by practicing it with us. Only through that practice and that regularity do we actually start making change happen and getting the person who the idea starts creating the conversation. Creating the interaction without having to worry about whether or not he or she knows how to create wireframe or whether or not the APIs will be available to make the impossible.
Let's just design what is the ideal end state. We can test that. Get it right. Then go off and build it.
Jared: What else did you see over the last year that has either sort of reinforced your understanding of content first or sort of surprised you a bit?
Stephanie: One of the most professionally fulfilling moments of my career was about, I would say, three months ago now, the head of our user labs, a wonderful woman by the name of Mave. Mave came over to me and she said, "I've been listening to all the content first." We had been doing some internal trainings and workshops that she had been part of.
She set up user testing labs in I think eight different locations now. There are daily interviews that we run, empathy sessions, and that sort of thing. She has 15, 20 years of experience having created research methodologies and user testing sessions and that sort of thing, executing those.
She came over and said, "One of the things I took away from the content first approach was that it doesn't even necessarily need to be a content strategist creating the content. It could be a designer. It could be a product manager. It could be a brand strategist. It could be a senior level stakeholder. Somebody who knows how to write what they're imagining would be the conversation that they're trying to design for."
She says, "I also thought maybe the researchers could do this." She created a template that they could use in testing sessions. It's talk bubbles. On one side of the page is an avatar with a talk bubble coming out of it. The other side of the page is like a computer with a talk bubble coming out of it. It's just page after page of this over and over again.
She says, "Give this to people and ask them, 'Hey, if you had to design a kind of conversation you'd want to have with your bank about X problem that you're having, how would you want that conversation to go?'"
When she came over to tell me about this, she was holding the template. Then underneath the template were 30, 40 pieces of paper that were just scrolled on in the backs of them. People had written on the backs of them too because the customers that she had put this in front of knew how to do that work.
When she asked them that the question, they started writing the conversation they wanted to have with us. They were designing what they wanted us to make. That only came out of the content first approach that she could then adopt for what she knew from a research perspective.
What she said is, "I have never somebody be able to complete these exercise that we've given people." I think it goes back to what I said at the beginning. I think the main difference is we're oftentimes sitting in front of people asking them to test usability and asking them if they understand.
What we're really doing in the conversation first approach, talk bubble approach, is asking them to tell us their mental model. To tell us how they understand a particular problem and how they would love to interact with their bank in order to help them solve that problem as a starting point.
Ideally, then we could, from a usability perspective, design something that's automatically usable and it's already understandable because it came from the customer.
Jared: This is intriguing because you're sitting with one of your customers or potential customer or a competitor's customer, I guess.
Jared: Not that you guys would ever do that.
Stephanie: Of course not.
Jared: Are you asking, "How does this conversation go today?" or, "How would you like to see this conversation go?" or a little bit of both.
Stephanie: We've mostly been focusing on the latter. Often, we know how the conversation is going today which is probably why we're trying to do something better.
Jared: That's true.
Stephanie: That said, asking them questions along the way, like what do you love about this problem before we get to the actual conversation design exercise. Like what do you hate about this problem? Like what is it in the interaction with us or the interaction with your bank that really just like gets under your skin?
Often, the language that they'll use when you ask them questions like what do love about something or what do you hate about something is so emotional by giving them those two choices. What do you love and what do you hate? So emotional, you can learn a lot about somebody's real reaction to that situation.
If they're mediocre like, "Well, something I don't really like about it," it's almost an indicator immediately that this person doesn't really feel that particular pain point. Maybe that particular interview is not going to be as powerful as the person who goes, "This ruined my life."
Then you want to pay attention to that person because that's actually not an outlier. That's the real opportunity there.
Jared: You guys screwed up and it took me years to fix the problem. That seems really powerful.
Stephanie: To your question about what I've learned, where to plug in in the middle of a project and extracting language from an interface that already exists and isolating it. Also, using words in the customer interviews and asking them to design a conversation they want to have with us.
It seems like common sense. We as designers, especially customer development in lean startup methodology or design thinking is all around empathy interviews to say, "What is the customer problem here? What is the real need of the person I'm talking to?"
Only until I understand who this person is and where they're really coming from can I design a great solution. We designers feel like it's our responsibility to create that solution of that conversation. Where the content strategy piece comes into play and [inaudible 18:48] content strategy is to say, "We're going to pay attention to the language that you use to talk about your problem, to talk about your needs."
Then if we as a company are brave enough to use that same language, if we as a company are brave enough to let you design a conversation with us, to not over brand something, to not dilute it with marketing language, then we'll actually do a better job of speaking to you in the most like plain text human way that's going to make us better as a company that's going to make you feel better.
There's just going to be natural trust there because we're going to all do a better job communicating with each other.
Jared: Since you did this year, you've spent an entire year at Capital One. Capital One is not a small company. It's a huge company.
Basically, the problems that you'd run into at Capital One are different problems. You probably run into on the projects that you brought content first to before that. What are some of the things that happen at scale that you don't see on smaller projects where you can get all the stakeholders in a room at one time?
You've got huge amounts of content. You've got a huge amount of stakeholders. You've got endless numbers of diversity in terms of the project's portfolios that you're working on. How does that change this or does it?
Stephanie: That's a great question.
Jared: That's what I get paid to do.
Stephanie: Fundamentally, it doesn't change the practice of our work. The scale at Capital One, what it does do is introduce new levels of content first that are in arenas that I've never participated in. Like legal and compliance regulations in Capital One.
Terms and conditions, I can't go off and rewrite terms and conditions to be plain text language without putting the company at risk. [laughs] There are so many levers in place that would keep that sort of thing from getting to market and rightfully so.
However, we are doing and I think really speaks to the evolution of the industry as a whole frankly is pushing the envelope where humanly possible. Before I started working at Capital One I was working with companies like Ben and Jerry's, with you, with Annie E. Casey Foundation.
I haven't run into anyone yet who says we absolutely cannot speak in human terms, in customer terms. We absolutely cannot use the data that we could pull from site search terms or Google Keyword Planner or call center data and use that as a jumping off point to create something better.
I think what ultimately has happened is when design and particular visual design became a thing. People wanted design and content was sort of put in the backseat as an asset to be addressed later after the design was figured out.
What's happening is the Ubers of the world, the Airbees of the world, have said design plus understanding how to communicate with people, understanding their experience, is actually greater. It's all of the experience. An experience is the product. The only way you can really rise above just this website redesign and actually create something more meaningful and sustainable is to connect all of the parts together.
What that means is at a company at the scale of Capital One, legal is no longer the part of the production timeline that we get to later in the process. Copyrighter is not the person that we get to after we get that redesign.
Instead, we're morphing the processes to enable those people to be part of the design process itself. We're bringing together the desperate projects that are overlapping and saying, "Hey teams, you should be figuring out what the commonalities are so that we can create experiences so we can map all these things together."
As you know in particular with Capital One, I think when Adaptive Path joined our team, that wasn't an accident. [laughs]
Jared: They didn't like back in. It was like, "Go."
Stephanie: That's right.
Jared: They got themselves locked in the wrong room.
Stephanie: [laughs] That's right. What are we doing here?
Jared: It's like, "How do we get out?"
Stephanie: This isn't unique to Capital One, of course. This is my experience that I can only speak to. The important takeaway here is that I think there are new standards being set for what experience feels like. Pioneers who came way before us in different aspects like Disney. That's a perfect one.
Didn't you go to Disney in Paris just now or something?
Jared: We did.
Stephanie: The example of the towels, the towels that are folded on the hotel beds.
Jared: The origami animal towels.
Stephanie: You got it. This is experience design. The only way to achieve experience design is to have cohesive design processes that involve all the elements that are part of that experience. Not to treat it like a production cycle.
That's a really long way of saying I actually don't think that my previous experiences as a consultant and before that at an agency are even comparable in a way to what's happening inside Capital One. It's like apples and oranges.
Because we're designing experiences here and it's not a project in a way that like we're re-launching a website and we hope that it works. In a couple years, we'll redesign it. It's like this is part of a history that we're designing right now.
Jared: A lot of what you guys do and I assume you work on is transactional. You're working on the transactional side. Some of those transactions are things people do multiple times a week. Some of those transactions, they might do once a year. Like if they're tax return data and that sort of intermittent frequency. That plays a role in the type of content you create too, I assume.
Stephanie: Absolutely. It's our responsibility to understand exactly what you just said. The three pillars that we follow...
Jared: I don't even understand what I just said.
Stephanie: [laughs] That's it different for everyone. That it's dependent upon behavior. The three pillars we follow of content strategy at Capital One, one is natural language which we use data to determine and also A/B tests. We really need to speak the exact same language to our customers. We need to be brave enough to do that. That's what natural language is.
The second thing is use case specific. This gets to what you're talking about. Like there has to be a reason for this content to be there in the first place. It has to serve some purpose. In isolation, it's an asset. You can't look at it in isolation. You have to look at it in the context of the greater conversation that we designed for it.
If you're trying to make a payment, the only way to really analyze whether or not this is the right language here is to understand what the use case is and go from end to end. Then do that over and over again with the additional use cases.
It was natural language, use case specific. Then the third part is contextually relevant. Is this the right place for this language?
If the use case is if this person is probably going to be looking at this on his or her mobile phone and it's the fifth time today, that changes when and where you would serve particular pieces of content versus somebody who's coming for the first time on their desktop to do something that they've never done before or that they only do once a year.
Without those three pillars, we just look at content like a piece of this screen. That's not experience design. That's asset management. We're beyond that now.
Jared: It seems to me that what you've sort of gleamed from this helped to sort of round out this content first approach in a way that is going to make it more robust going forward and more flexible for folks who are finding themselves in an enterprise situation.
Are there specific things that you haven't talked about yet that people who work in smaller organizations that are not these large behemoth banks like Capital One that are still useful? It's like, "Oh, OK." I guess one is that if Capital One can do it, you have no excuse.
Stephanie: [laughs] That's right.
Jared: To some extent, people might turn around and say the opposite, "Well only an organization the size of Capital One would have the resources to pull this off. We don't even do usability testing or we don't even do A/B tests."
Stephanie: The reason why content first became a thing in my life is because I had been working on my own as an independent content strategist for a few years. Along the way, I had been part of a couple of startups. One of them, in particular, a mobile app called the Fast Customer Rep, where you don't hold for customer service.
It was a small team where we had to wear too many hats. I wasn't fast in designing layout. I was fast in designing the conversation that I wanted to have with the person when I was creating the on-boarding experience. For example, when you launch the MVP, you basically showed up and you had to know what to do. There was some marketing language on this site.
As we rose, we followed the sort of traditional Silicon Valley approach to starting to grow our team and build an infrastructure for scale. We realized we need an on-boarding experience that would help us learn who was actually using the app.
I was, at the time, trying to find a faster way to get the guts of what I was trying to say and the interaction I was trying to capture on paper. When our designer who only worked part-time with us was online, he could see the vision I had and not have to worry about the language. He could bring that to life.
It started with almost just like, "This is all I can do because I'm not really that good at design and I don't really want it to be a design because there are people who really love it and they should do it and I really love the words, so I should do that."
From there, I started practicing that content first approach in bigger and bigger ways. It went from an on-boarding process for a mobile app to the other startup. I was a co-founding editor of Work Design Magazine which now has a few thousand subscribers and a team of people supporting it.
That was a WordPress site with content. It was a content marketing play. If we could get people to come to this site to learn about the changing nature of work, then we would've validated the business idea which we did. From there, it just kept growing and growing. There are so much we could do with content if we just put it at the front of the process.
I remember when I gave the talk on content first design which is also largely influenced my experience on video game design of crafting the interactions and nailing the story and having the characters develop to almost like Hollywood style script writing before there was ever a character look, before there was ever a game design. The story is there.
Drawing on those sorts of things, I had put together this talk. I was talking about it on a stage in Nashville when some folks from the Capital One design team were in the audience and said, "Geez, we should work that way. Why don't we bring in Steph to do a talk?"
I had only been doing it at such a small scale and increasingly involving more and more people. Like Ben and Jerry's and Annie E. Casey Foundation, were the first projects where I tested whether or not a content first approach would work with the director of PR and the marketing person and the IT person. They did.
When I gave the talk at Capital One, they started saying, "Maybe you should come here and build a practice here." My first response was no way. [laughs] This will never scale because I've come to know that this is design. Content is design here. It's not audit. It's not the way that I think governance plans and editorial processes that had been part of I think content strategy's foundation.
I wasn't doing information architecture. I was designing all the content then figuring out what the architecture was once it was designed. I just couldn't believe that scale and I was totally wrong.
Ten folks on the team, looking like we'll probably double over the next year. It's because the demand for a design-focused content as design is real. It's not just a tool for me as the independent content strategist or team of one for any content strategist who's listening right now, or writer who's listening right now. It's anybody. That's how it scales. Is it anybody around you is capable of doing this?
They may have some chip on their shoulder, concern that they're not a copywriter. We hear that all the time. "I'm not a copywriter. Can you help us out with this?" It's like, it's not even about being a copywriter. It's just being comfortable being willing to put something out there that speaks very plainly to someone, and knowing that that's actually better than making it sound flashy.
Sounding flashing doesn't make an experience. In fact, it probably works against the credibility, because it sounds like you're trying to sell me something.
Jared: Right. I was just thinking that to some extent, if you have copywriters involved, you probably have to break them of the bad habits they have being copywriters.
Stephanie: That's right. Exactly! Well said. [laughs] To scale it up, it's just involving people and coaching them to feel comfortable that they can write customer-facing language, and that as long as it speaks very plainly to solving real problems, it's great!
Jared: How important is it that this be done in the product organization, versus in the marketing communications, or customer service, or wherever? Is that an essential element to this, or does it not matter? If I'm a content person that's not in product development somewhere in the organization, do I have to go sell this to the product people, or is this something I can make happen from where I'm standing?
Stephanie: It matters, and you can make it happen from where you're standing. What I've found always works, and this is true as well at Capital One. That there are copywriters, brand strategists, and legal folks who understand, get it, want to be part of the design process, are willing to come sit in on usability testing. And want to create content with us earlier in the process, versus waiting until everything else is figured out. And then, "show me what you got, and then I'll come in with my red pen," sort of thing.
Those are the people who are sitting in other places within the organizational silos who are participating in the new way of working, the new way of creating, designing experiences together, and they absolutely need to be there because we're better for it.
If people are waiting for permission, or trying to sell it, versus just saying, "Hey, could I come be part of that meeting, because I'd love to do this?" Putting themselves out there and saying, "Why don't I take a stab at writing the introductory email, and you can tell me what you think?"
People who do that, who take that initiative, who are willing to go outside of the bounds of their, I would say, organizational responsibilities, or silos, are the people who are making change happen. If you're waiting for permission, it's not going to happen, but you're going to be bored anyway, so why not just do the thing?
The worst thing that's going to happen is you'll create a Word document with some language in it that no one pays attention to! What's the real risk here? I think that's why content is such a leveling agent, because if you can write an email, and chances are if you've got a job it's because you put in a resume, because you were able to articulate who you are, and the value you bring to the table, jump in.
Be part of the creative process. Make things together. That's how experience happens.
Jared: Steph, this has been awesome. I'm excited about your workshop because it sounds like that even though it was one of the highest rated from last year, you're going to make it even better!
Stephanie: [laughs] I hope so! I aim to please.
Jared: This has been fantastic. For those of you who are listening who want to get more Steph, and why wouldn't you want to get more Steph? You will be able to spend an entire day with her talking about content first, where you'll actually get a chance to go through the process and create a design based on content at the UI Conference, November 2nd-4th.
She'll be doing a full-day workshop there. It's going to be absolutely fantastic. You're going to love it. You'll be able to go back immediately and do awesome stuff the day you get back to the office.
Jared: You need to check her out. You can find out more information at UICONF.com. That's where you'll find out about the entire conference, but in particular about her Content First Design Workshop. Steph, thank you so much for spending the time talking to us today.
Stephanie: It was my pleasure. Thanks, Jared.
Jared: I want to thank our audience for spending the time listening to us today. You're always awesome. If you have a chance, and you haven't done so, if you can go to iTunes, and leave what you felt about the podcast, and other podcasts there, we appreciate it.
We read all the reviews. It's fantastic. Thank you for listening. As always, thank you very much for encouraging our behavior. We'll talk to you soon...